Thursday, October 30, 2008

A Conversation on Facebook

This issue is tearing people apart. Here is a conversation I had just today. You be the judge of who is right and who is wrong for yourself, not for me or anyone else.

This vote is about telling California how you feel about the issue, not forcing anyone else to believe what you believe. I'm posting this hoping that it will help others realize that we need to stop fighting over this. When all is said & done, on November 5th we will go back to being family, friends, neighbors, etc... We are going to have to follow the law, no matter what it is. Let's not lose friends over this. Make sure that you fight for what you believe in, but not in a way that is hurtful to others. And those of you getting offended - STOP. We all have had different experiences, and therefore we all have different viewpoints. That's what makes this world such a beautiful place.

My friend Joe -

{Posts article on publishing the names of Mormon's who have contributed to YES on 8 and targeting them - read article HERE} Calling all Mormons! TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN TO DISCRIMINATE IS NOT IN THE BOOK OF LATTER DAY SAINTS!

Me -

Tolerance does not mean to condone one's actions. No one's rights are being taken away if Proposition 8 passes. On the other hand, if it doesn't pass, many rights will be taken away from God fearing people. For more information go to my blog The way that I am being treated as a Mormon is certainly an indication of how things are to be if Proposition 8 doesn't pass. How do you justify being intolerant while screaming that you demand tolerance? I am voting YES on Proposition 8, no matter how many names you sling my way. It's the right choice in my opinion, and I have the right to vote however I'd like.

Joe -

Prop 8 does take away my right to marry. I can't control who I'm attracted to. Being gay IS NOT A CHOICE. So why should a complete stranger be given the power to dictate if I can marry the person I fall in love with? A COMPLETE STRANGER HAS THE POWER TO DESTROY THE POSSIBILITIES OF ME STARTING A FAMILY! By posting the list of Prop 8 contributors is not intolerance at all. It's simply stating a fact. There is nothing about me spending my life with someone that needs to be "tolerated". You say it as if a homosexual needs to have the permission of a heterosexual to get married. WTF? And the way youre being treated for being a Mormon isn't shit compared to how I've been treated my entire life for being gay. We spent 4 years along side each other at PHS & you can vouch that I was called some horrible names. Please read Stephanie Brodyy's message on my way. There are only 14 words in Prop 8 & not a single word is about schools or churches.

Me -

You have the "right" to marry...The law just dictates to whom. I am subject to those same laws, so in fact, we have the same rights. Having the temptation of same-sex attraction may not have been your choice, but it was your choice to act upon it. I know that will be hurtful to you, but I'm sorry...that's what I believe.I would fight to the death for your freedom to act as you choose. But when it comes to the morality of my state, I will fight to the death to protect the traditional family. You have domestic partnerships, which under CA Family Code 297.5 grants you all the rights as spouses. So, we must ask, why do you need it to be called marriage? For social status? It is not marriage. To me and millions others, marriage is the sacred union between MAN & WOMAN. It is how God designed it to be the best for relationships and for children to grow and be nurtured. Society has all but obliterated that. Now it is "uncool" & "bigoted" to want to try & keep that definition sacred. The reason I put the word right in quotation marks is because I don't think it's a civil right to be able to marry. My friend Blaine put it this way - "I personally respect a persons right to believe how or what they may but they may not always do what they want. Which brings me to another point: What is a right? Our founding fathers had specific ideas in mind when they established the Bill of Rights. A right was something that you could do without fear of legal consequence. However, rights are not absolute. Our Bill of Rights were things that people could do but government or society was not required to provide you with the means to practice that right. For example, you have freedom of speech but society and the government are not required to provide you with a radio station to exercise that right. You have freedom to bear arms but fellow citizens are not required to buy you a gun. You have freedom of religion but the nation is not required to build you a church. That's why medical care is not a right. Others would have to pay for you to receive it. That's why it's not in our Constitution. The same thing could be said of the government buying you a house." I think there is a hidden agenda here. No, the words "children" & "schools" are not in the words that will be added to the constitution. But we are talking about CA law here. If the law defines marriage as a union between and 2 people, regardless of gender, then according to CA Education codes 51890 & 51933, homosexual marriage will be taught in school. It's interesting to me that all the organizations that are claiming that it won't change anything in schools (ACLU, Anti-Defamation League, Equality for All) have fought very hard in Mass. so that it was taught in schools. Do they think that children in Mass. should be taught different in CA? Or are they LYING?

Joe -

Ok so just so the Mormon Faith isn't tested I will fake an attraction to a woman, lie to her about the love, start a family that I wouldn't want, live a miserable life & break her heart when she realizes I don't love her. ALL IN THE NAME OF KEEPING MARRIAGE SACRED. Honestly Heather...think about what you are suggesting. I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO WOMEN. So becuase of an uncontrolable emotion I'm supposed to suffer a life of solidarity just because your faith says so? You're following your faith blindly & taking down anyone that tests, challenges or thinks otherwise. And no matter the cost. I've lost friends because I'm gay. I've been ridiculed because I'm gay. I have family members who don't talk to me because I'm gay. Not because I ACTED upon my attactions but for the simple fact of who I am attracted to. Not only are you forcing your faith onto people that aren't Mormon but you're blantantly disregarding THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE.

Me -

In case you can't tell, I've researched this THOROUGHLY. You just see it as an opportunity to have a wedding just like anyone else. I wish that was all this was about, because frankly, I wish you could. I would be there to support you even. But this is about SO MUCH MORE! There are many ways that both sides could be happy. We don't have to change the legal definition of marriage to have equality.Now, I know that I probably won't change your mind, and I'm damn sure that you won't change mine, so let's just agree to disagree, like I thought we had before. Instead I find you passive aggressively calling me out on Facebook. I'm sorry that Mormon's have hurt your feelings. That is NOT our intent. It is an unfortunate consequence of 4 activist SF judges denying the will of the people and forcing us to have to take a stand.I love you, and I'm sorry that I see things much differently than you. I will abide by the will of the people as it is decided on November 4th. I am voting YES on Prop 8.

Joe -

Heather I haven't addressed any of my postings to you. I've simply posted things that reflect my life. It is my page afterall. If you're part of a "religion" that funds political legislation then that's on you. And that point alone should be questioned more. Why are you so poised to protect the sanctity of marriage but you throw THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE right out the window? I would never think about forcing any of my beliefs or views on any of my friends let alone a complete stranger. So why isn't the same expected from you? Oh that's right because you're religion says so. Anytime anyone's religion is tested (ESPECIALLY THE CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS) the opposition is seen as secular & divisive. Your vote for Prop 8 isn't a vote to protect marriage. It doesn't need any protection. Marry the man you love. It's not like my marriage will affect yours in any way. And if it does. Then you have some serious praying to do. A vote for 8 is simply a vote to promote discrimination.

Me -

So when you write "Calling all Mormons" you're not talking to me? How many Mormon friends do you have on Facebook? (You don't need to even answer's rhetorical.) I also saw that you pointed out to Stephanie that I am Mormon. This all leads me to discern that you were addressing me.What part of Proposition 8 forces my beliefs on you? The California people should be able to decide how we want marriage defined, not the courts.I notice that you didn't address any of my just simply start ranting discrimination again. I have clearly pointed out that this has nothing to do with discrimination. We both have all the same rights. NOTHING will be taken away.I don't agree with your lifestyle. That doesn't make me a bad person. You are not a bad person either. WE NEED TO STOP ATTACKING EACH OTHER OVER THIS!!!!!!!!!!!You are passionate, and I am too. We understand each other's views. We still disagree. Let's call it a day on this one.

Joe -

Deal! Good night!

I'm glad that ended well, and I hope and pray that we can still be friends. We have been pretty good at staying friends for this long so far, so I think we have a chance. Just remember to treat each other with respect and how you would like to be treated. We're going to have to work together one way or the other after this is all done. Don't do anything you would regret. Thanks.


Anonymous said...

heather, thanks for you good and reasonable example.

IzeOfLight said...

I had a similarly difficult discussion today on Facebook, as well, though it was more one-liners back and forth. It's hard because--you're right--it is such a divisive issue.

Thank you for standing firm and steadfast, Heather; you folks here have inspired me to keep moving forward in this effort.

Elizabeth said...

It's sad that so many members of the gay community feel like they have no agency in all of this.

Anonymous said...

I have no dog in this fight, being that I'm not Californian, Morman or gay, but just a thought or three...

"If it doesn't pass, many rights will be taken away from God fearing people." Like what? What will be 'taken from you'?

This sentence "You have the "right" to marry...The law just dictates to whom" is positively absurd. I got stuck on that line for a good 5 minutes. I honestly don't know how to translate my response into sentences right now. What if the law were about friendships. What if the law said 'You have the right to be friends, just not with brown haired girls, so sorry Aubrey, you're out.' Doesn't that sound a little silly?

The final quote that prompted the writing of this comment was "? So, we must ask, why do you need it to be called marriage?" Well, why not? Last I checked, homosexuals are people just like you & I, and the definition of marriage is "a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other'. So, I ask....what would you rather it be called? Why would you ostracize a person/couple/community just because you don't share the same beliefs? How is it hurting you?

This was one of the most frustrating blogs I've come across as of late. I mean no disrespect, but I'm just astounded how intolerant you are. Like I said above, I'm not Mormon or gay....and I would never try and tell you that you cannot call you're relationship a marriage just because you don't agree with my beliefs.

Jennylee Guzzi.

Christa Jeanne said...

Jennylee, there ARE rights at stake on both sides, however. If you look at the cases being fought on this turf around the country, you'll see that when it comes between religion and gay marriage, religion almost always loses - to the point of doctors being told they'd better perform in-vitro fertilization on lesbians contrary to their personal beliefs or get another profession, or telling a church that doesn't believe in same-sex marriage that they legally HAVE to allow gay weddings on their PRIVATE property (see - scroll down to the list of situations at the bottom).

It isn't that we're trying to legislate what people do in their homes. That's their business. But that needs to go both ways. Education unions pour massive amounts of their union dues into fighting for same-sex marriage - something that has NOTHING to do with the three R's (but everything to do with pushing agendas that normalize same-sex marriage at a young age). We're merely standing up for what we believe - and doing so respectfully. Many of us bloggers, myself included, have close friendships with people who are gay. It's not an issue. But redefining marriage goes WAY beyond how a couple conducts their business.